Soccer

» SimonMelville - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

I am ashamed of the England team. They stink.

I don't care that we are rubbish, I don't care we can't play like Brazil, I DO care that our football is the most torpid of all the quarter finalists -- even France managed to be better than us when they bundled out Spain.

I HATE the way we play. Where's the verve? The excitement? The joie de vivre?

I'd rather we didn't win the World Cup playing the way we are. Even one good performance in the final would not be enough for me if we stodge our way through the quarter and semi-finals.

I feel utterly patronised by the reports saying no England fan will mind how they play if they win the World Cup, because this fan cares -- how hollow will the victory feel if we bundle out the infinitely more entertaining Argentinians, Brazilians or (Lord help us) Germans?

This also assumes that we have become some kind of efficient winning machine just because we have won all our matches so far -- against some pretty poor teams. We've just been crap -- talk about putting spin on our performances.

I may just be a silly old man, with silly old-fashioned views but what happened to the beautiful game? Is it reserved for Nike adverts?

For all those who say that style and the way you play never gets put in the record books, I say: "Who reads record books anyway? Apart from to check facts, and if you are a fact checker that's perfectly alright, carry on as you are." Anyone else if a dried up old pedant, who is more interested in facts and figures than the game itself.

The Dutch team of the 1970s provided many a memorable moment and played some of the best football ever and what did they win? Nothing. Who remembers them? Everyone.

I'm not asking for the England team to reinvent total football but I do want some entertainment outside of the supposed joy of seeing people born in the same country as me donning a white (or red) shirt and grinding out a grim 1-0.

I want to forget that football is now "big business", forget it's "more important than life or death", forget about the spitting, snarling and diving (all at the same time) millionaires playing out their professional fouls in front of Nazi-saluting, monkey-chanting Neanderthals.

I want it to be just a sport, entertainment and above all FUN. I may have to go back to the playground or up my ivory tower to get it but I won't be clapping Sven and the boys if we scrap our way to becoming champions on July 9th.

So there.

-- posted by SimonMelville

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» dantilles - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

As an England fan I agree with you in many ways. I've been saying after each England match through this whole World Cup that the team just can't make me feel proud of them even when they win. We scraped past Paraguay courtesy of an own goal; we couldn't break down the T&T defence until the last 10 mins; we had a great first half against Sweden but then God knows what happened in the second; and we made hard work of disposing of the worst team in the whole second round.

However, what I do disagree with you about is that England should be expected to play beautiful football. Football was invented as and to many people still is a sport. Not entertainment. The idea of a sport is for both teams to try to win. The fact that along the way football has attracted spectators, TV stations, money and everything else doesn't take away from the fact that at the end of the day these players and managers are paid to and want to win. If you are interesting in great football then you should just be happy watching Brazil, Argentina or whoever else. As an England fan I'm just interesting in the team winning; if they do it in style then great but if it involves a strong defence and a lack of flair then so be it. Who do you think were happier football fans in the mid-90s: Geordies who saw Newcastle play exciting football under Keegan but win nothing, or Man Utd fans who saw their team win just about everything? Same goes for Liverpool and 'boring boring' Arsenal fans in the late 80s/early 90s. You're right that people remember exciting teams like the Dutch (although they are equally remembered for never winning anything) but they also remember the efficient, successful teams like Italy and Germany have often been over the years.

I want England to play better, but they don't have to duty to play beautifuly

In response to Winning ugly -- it's not worth it. posted by SimonMelville:

-- posted by dantilles

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» KiwiDave - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

We don't need to worry about England winning by continuing the ugly form they've shown so far, because if they play this Saturday anything like they have so far in the tournament they'll be out. England have scrapped through because of the relatively poor quality of opposition they have faced so far - they were lucky to draw easily the weakest second round opposition.
If Sven doesn't have a master plan to ensure England's game improves vastly (I suspect he does) then Portugal will barely have to break a sweat, and we can make that 44 years of hurt...and counting.

-- posted by KiwiDave

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» SimonMelville - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

In response to Winning ugly -- it's not worth it. posted by KiwiDave:

KiwiDave -- your faith in a Sven masterplan is touching. But without Deco, England have a great chance to beat Portugal -- he's more important to them than either Cristiano Ronaldo or Figo.

-- posted by SimonMelville

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» phillongman - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

In response to Winning ugly -- it's not worth it. posted by SimonMelville:

England have been a fantastic disappointment in the tournament (so far - he says, optimistically). So many creative midfielders with so many club goals between them, and yet their impact on games has been pathetic.

Such a strong, reliable defence so hard to break down in qualifying and warm-ups, has looked uncharacteristically shaky and disorientated.

And the less said about our forwards, the better.

Our attacking set-plays have been shabby, while our weak defending at set-pieces has been baffling. Our long balls have been an incredible frustration, and our short balls often inaccurate. We've become a team no one wants to watch, and most would probably prefer to lose (thanks for that Sepp, you big-mouthed, self-important t*sser).

And if England win the World Cup this year -- it'll be quite possibly the best day of my life. I simply could not currently imagine the elation I would feel if I saw our much-maligned captain lift that gold nugget in July. It brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. And any England 'fan' who claims to feel otherwise, simply doesn't understand the magnitude of the event and the impact it would have on the game in England.

Forget the Ashes (errr, excuse me, but we are not better than Australia) and the Rugby World Cup (how many teams could realistically have won it? and it's a skilless, graceless, brute of a game anyway) - the football WC is THE greatest sporting event on the planet. To be able to say in my lifetime, "We are the Champions of the World", would make me unimaginably proud. The ripples of excitement, pride and increase in interest and sponsorship would be felt throughout the English game for years to come.

And it would piss those Scots RIGHT off.

We won't win it, Christ no. We're no where near good enough.

But if we did, I'd be in the streets singing and dancing and crying and shouting having a day I would remember for the rest of my life and one I'd be recounting to my grandchildren 30 years from now with a quiver in my voice and a starry look in my eyes (that'll be the glaucoma).

And presumably you’d be sat in your room bemoaning the fact that Brazil’s individual skill, attacking play and general arrogance wasn’t enough to win it for them seeing as their defence was sh:t (football is a game requiring skilled attacking AND defending, by the way). And, eventually, dressing your grandchildren in Argentina shirts and teaching them to recite the Koran.

In 1966 that ball DID NOT cross the line. If that 'goal' had not been given, who knows what would've happened? The Germans might have beaten us on our own soil. Would you have preferred that in the name of all that is right and just? Probably you would. But not I, my controversial and misguided fool of a friend. I’ll be supporting the players trying their hardest to bring joy to 60 million people despite their manager’s best efforts to blow our best chance for 40 years with his spoiling tactics.

Bring it home, boys. I’m still rooting for you.

-- posted by phillongman

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» SimonMelville - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

In response to Winning ugly -- it's not worth it. posted by phillongman:

Phillip, I do want to see England win, but to do it with some style.

As for Brazil not being able to defend -- how many goals have they let in? I think you'll find it's one less than us.

As an example of bovine, unthinking jingoism, your post was a tour de force (apologies if the use of the French language causes you any offence).

-- posted by SimonMelville

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» AlanCollymore - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

In response to Winning ugly -- it's not worth it. posted by SimonMelville:

In retrospect it wasn't stylish football that proved most decisive, look at the Italians, but rather organised tactical football with alot of heart and only the occasional piece of flair. In my opinion winning ugly is not only worth it, but was very necessary in this World Cup. And considering the English are surely capable of such football, they missed out big time.

-- posted by AlanCollymore

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» SimonMelville - Winning ugly -- it's not worth it.

In response to Winning ugly -- it's not worth it. posted by AlanCollymore:

Alan, you're right but I'm questioning whether winning like that is worth it. You have to be a one-eyed patriot to be Portuguese and proud of their performances. Maybe we should be more like the Dutch and Spanish and take pride in playing football nicely and not necessarily winning at all costs, although Van Basten's Oranje side failed to do even that.

It's a bit unfair to judge the Italians purely on their performance in the final, with players like Pirlo, Totti, Del Piero, Camoranesi they had a team capable of exciting football which they unfortunately failed to show against France but did show in bursts throughout the rest of the tournament.

As for England winning ugly, I agree we're more than capable of being ugly. But winning? History since 1966 shows otherwise. The reason is because some of that ugliness needs tempering with moments of beauty to win matches -- Italy produce the sort of footballers who can provide that and England don't.

For all the blood and thunder heroics of players like Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard (good, maybe great, players that they are) those aren't the skills to win tournaments -- you need some of the delicacy and intelligence that the English game doesn't provide.

Maybe it's time we stopped worrying about it and just accepted it and lost the histrionics each time we crash out of a tournament?

Thank you for adding to the discussion.

-- posted by SimonMelville

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